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- There were two delegates
present from DLF. As it isn't clear which person
is speaking from the voice-over, their contributions
are both recorded as 'DLF'
- Two representatives from
the RNID were present, shown as 'JL' (John Low,
Chief Executive) and 'BL' (Brian Lamb, Director
of Communications).
- Two interpreters were also
present. Interpreter clarifications in the dialogue
are shown as ( )
- Inaudible words, due
to overlapping talk, are shown as …
JL: Ok, I thought that
since you had come to Featherstone Street to,
erm, to protest outside, that it might be a good
idea if we just have a chat. You also sent me
a few e-mails, erm, and asked for a meeting and,
er, so it's good to have a chance to do it now.
So, welcome to the RNID, nice to see you. I hope
it's not too cold outside and, er, you know, I'm
interested to hear what you would like to speak
to me about. I'll try and be open and honest with
you.
DLF: Erm, yes, I was
wondering what your response has been to the protest
so far?
JL: Well, I think it's
a little bit sad that an organisation which exists
to help deaf people of all kinds- people who have
a very small hearing loss, who are maybe old and
just not hearing so well, and including people
who are profoundly deaf- it's sad that an organisation
that's working very hard to improve the quality
of life for all kinds of deaf people is being
criticised, er, for the good things that we're
doing. Erm, we don't mind people protesting. I
don't object- it's fine. But I'm just a little
sad.
DLF: Sorry to interrupt,
but why are we here to protest? Because the, erm,
the Chief Executive and the Leaders of the organisation
aren't D/deaf, and we would like to protest for,
for that to be, for that to happen. We're not
focussing on other issues- what services you provide
for D/deaf people- we are just focussing on that
issue.
And I'd like to add - this isn't a personal criticism
of you; it just happens to be you. ( )
And also that we have international support on
this issue. We're getting e-mails from all over-
there is very positive feedback from lots of Deaf
supporting what we're doing. ( ) England,
we've got support here- but we've got support
in Germany, and other places- we've got lots of
international support from all sorts of Deaf organisations
on this issue ( ) So although there are
only a few people outside, we do have support.
-Interruption as
tea and coffee brought in-
And I'd like to make it clear that we're not really
focussing on you as a personal thing. But, I mean,
we've been ignored for a long time. And we've
been thinking after your appointment, about, you
know, we don't want that to continue to happen.
JL: Sure, well, when
the RNID was looking for a new Chief Executive,
erm, the, there were two hundred people, er, wanted
to do the job who wrote to the RNID and asked
for information about it. Of that two hundred,
I think the number was ninety-eight people actually
put in a written application, and the trustees
created a group, a panel, to choose the person
to do the job. And they had written down very
clearly the skills that they required, and the
experience required, and they went through a very
careful and structured selection process to get
the best person for the job. And it was actually
very hard for me, because I was inside RNID and
they knew the things I was good at, but they also
knew the things I wasn't good at, and they made
me go over a much higher hurdle than people outside
because I knew the organisation. But in the end
the trustees, erm, one hundred per cent -all of
them on the selection panel- said that the best
person for the job is John, and they asked me
to do it, erm, and I, I think it's a great privilege
for me to be asked to do this. It's an organisation
I have great admiration for, and, er, I have enjoyed
working in RNID for D/deaf people for people with
tinnitus, those who are getting old and have a
hearing loss, erm, I've really enjoyed it, and
it's a great chance to make a difference, erm.
So really, erm, the trustees- the majority of
whom are deaf or hard of hearing- chose the person
they thought was the best person for the job,
erm. That's why RNID has a hearing Chief Executive,
and a Trustee Panel, which is mainly deaf and
hard of hearing, and a Chairman, James Strachan,
who is profoundly deaf.
DLF: If you respect the
Deaf Community, why won't you let it be a Deaf
led organisation? And why focus on hard of hearing?
The voting system has been changed so the Deaf
Community should be able to be more involved through
that voting system- but that hasn't happened in
the way it's structured now.
JS: Yes, when we want
trustees, erm, we publish, er, in the magazine
that there's a position open, a vacancy for a
trustee, and, you know, we have, we have only
had one, in recent years, only one person who
is a BSL user who is profoundly deaf has allowed
their name to go forward to be voted for a trustee-
and we don't know what to do. We want more, erm,
Deaf 'with a capital D' people on the Board of
Trustees, but no-one is coming forward, erm, and
yes of course there's the voting system but, you
know, what do we do? Er, we can't force people
to be trustees. It's a difficult job- it takes
a lot of time, and you need, you know, to be able
to read all the papers and understand the finance
and so on, er but, er, what, what more can we
do? What do you think we should do?
DLF: You should know
what to do- do you still think you're the best
person for the job although you can't bring in
Deaf people?
JL: Well we've asked
deaf people to be trustees and they won't do it.
DLF: Well you have to
think about why.
JL: That's, that's clear.
And there are some very complex reasons I think.
DLF: I think you need
to sort it out, this mess that's been created,
and how you can solve that.
JL: I don't think it's
a mess, erm, really, because RNID is deliberately
a democratic organisation. We have members, and
the members vote for the Trustees, and the Trustees
choose the Chief Executive, and the Staff, and
the Trustees say how the organisation should go,
the strategy, decide the direction - and that's
the right thing. RNID should be democratic, erm,
so I don't think it's a mess, erm. You disagree
of course, that's fine, but I don't think there
is a mess to sort out.
DLF: But most of your
members are hearing! Most Deaf, like us, would
not become involved in the organisation- so the
point is that it's hearing people who vote for
the trustees, and so it's hearing people who run
that ultimately!
JL: But, Jen, what can
I do? Do I have to say to people "you must
go to the doctor and get a certificate to prove
that you're deaf before you can become a member
of the RNID"? It's crazy, I, I can't do that!
Erm, do I have to get people to sit a BSL exam
before they become a member?
DLF: No, no, no, it's
off the point, that's not the point. I'm just
saying that you should think about it, that it's
a fact that most of your members are hearing.
It's a fact- and you should think about why! And
it's a communication issue. You have a communication
issue with the Deaf Community: you can't communicate
with the Deaf Community! And you need to build,
that, you need to build links with Deaf people
in order to bring Deaf more involved ( )
And we have some ideas of how the problem could
possibly be solved- we've been thinking about
some ideas from the Deaf Community, and, erm,
so we've got five points- five demands actually.
I'll go through them. Would you like, maybe you'd
like to respond as we go along.
We've been talking to lots of Deaf people, getting
lots of feedback from the rest of the Community,
and the first demand is that you resign as Chief
Executive, and that you give your notice on the
grounds that you don't meet the criteria (
) of being a Deaf or hard of hearing person,
and because you've got a technical/ medical background
which doesn't follow the social model of deafness.
JL: Would this, would
you want me to leave RNID completely and just
go and do something else?
DLF: Yes
JL: What, what would
you like me to go and do?
DLF: That's up to you.
JL: Erm, well, my reaction
is that, erm, I'm not going to resign. I'm sorry
to disappoint you. I've been asked to do this
job, and I did promise the Trustees that I would
stay for a reasonable time, and that I would,
er, take, lead the organisation in the direction
the Trustees have asked me to lead the organisation
and therefore I'm not going to resign, and I'm
going to stay with the organisation. And I can
tell you something about the direction later.
DLF: No, let's go on
to the next demand. Fine. The second demand -
Now you need to acknowledge that you can not represent
the 'big D' Deaf Community, and Deaf people do
not want you as Chief Executive. You don't know
enough about Deaf Culture, you don't know enough
about Deaf Politics, and you can not represent
us. So you should give that representing, you
should pass that responsibility over to the BDA.
And you should make sure that there is funding
given to the BDA to support that, as you hand
over responsibility for the Deaf Community to
their organisation, to make sure that the Deaf
Community can be, can have it's needs met. Have
you got a response to that?
JL: I'm interested, er,
do you, are you saying that the BDA is the organisation
that represents the Deaf Community, and that no
other organisation represents …
DLF: Yes
JL: So are you protesting
today on behalf of the BDA?
DLF: The BDA is the main
organisation. There are other organisations, but
the BDA is the main organisation- it was set up
a long time ago, for sign language users.
JL: Are you protesting
today on behalf of the BDA?
DLF: No! No, we just
thought that they've got the staff, they've got
the issues, they're there, and they are an appropriate
organisation to represent us. You are really for
deafened and hard of hearing, but the BDA are
strongly Deaf, for the Deaf Community. I recognise
that the RNID is useful for supporting deafened
people and hard of hearing, that's fine. But,
but representing the Deaf Community? No! No, what
have you got for us? Nothing. But I can accept
that you carry on supporting the hard of hearing
and deafened community, that's fine, that's not,
we don't have a problem with that. But we're not
hard of hearing, we're not 'small d'.
JL: Ok, erm, if, if you
want us to stop, if you don't want us to represent
the Deaf Community, I can understand what you're
saying, I, I presume that you want us to stop
all the activities that we do which are for people
who use sign language?
DLF: Yes, we want you
to give over your responsibilities to the BDA
JL: So we will close…
DLF: But not at the moment,
you'd have to- I mean, for example, there's no
proper RNID support for BSL recognition at the
moment, and other organisations have been campaigning.
You need to give your representation over to the
BDA for them to sort out.
JL: So you would want
us to close our Interpreting Services across the
whole of the UK?
DLF: Yes, fine.
JL: And we would have
to make all of our interpreters redundant.
DLF: Look, look, hang
on- Give over the responsibility, that responsibility,
to the BDA.
JL: The BDA would not
want to employ hundreds of staff from RNID. There's
no money; there is no funds.
DLF: Hang on ( )
We're not speaking for the BDA. We've just identified
that they're a suitable organisation. We feel
that they're an appropriate organisation to take
forward issues from the 'big D' Deaf Community.
And another point, one Deaf person gave me their
view on it: They went to the council and needed
to book an interpreter. They were phoning round
and they couldn't get an interpreter, so, erm,
they said "the RNID would be the best place
to go, ask them", but the RNID couldn't provide,
so they said "why don't you try other agencies?"
but the council said "we can't ask other
agencies because we have a contract with the RNID,
so we are not allowed to use other agencies, we
just have to use the RNID"
JL: If we do what you
want we would have to close our, er…
DLF: So they were being
forced to use the RNID, rather than using other
agencies and other interpreters!
JL: Let me explain that,
erm, the, a council will come to us and ask us
for a contract and, by giving the contract, we
offer interpreters at a very low price and we
also agree to supply, you know, a certain amount
of interpreting hours over the year, erm. That
enables the council to plan to give the right
level of support that they feel they need across
the contract period. And it allows us to train
new interpreters to make sure that we have got
enough capacity, erm, the, it is actually a cost
saving for the council, and their internal rules
about using contracts…
DLF: Well it's not, it's
not a positive thing. Can we please go on to the
next point?
JL: But no, I think,
I mean you must know, I would, if I do what you
say, I would have to close our Employment Service-
we work one to one with D/deaf people to get them
jobs, erm, if we're not going to represent the
Deaf Community we must stop doing that work, erm,
because we can't represent the Deaf Community,
and I think that's crazy! Why? Why tear down these
things that are bringing benefits to D/deaf people?
DLF: No, look, there's
two points- both of those services can be replaced,
right- there are different ways of organising
those services. We don't have to talk about it
loads now, but there are. You can replace, those
are both replaceable. And the other thing is,
I'm not saying that you should totally close-
just pass them over! Not close them and drop them-
we're not going to suddenly say we don't want
Interpreting Services- pass them over to the BDA;
that's different.
JL: So the BDA would
employ all the staff that we have, and they would
find the money to pay the salaries? That, erm,
because we have no money.
DLF: You'd have to give
financial support to the BDA to meet it- you could
always work in partnership on that.
JL: No, we don't have
any money. The money for Interpreting Services
comes by selling the Interpreting Services. RNID
doesn't have any money. If you look at our financial,
er, statements, we don't have huge reserves of
money. We have to work hard to earn every pound
that we use to help D/deaf people, erm. Really,
you know, there isn't money to hand over. The
BDA- or whoever takes over the interpreting- would
have to find the, make the money themselves. They'd
have to earn the money through the services. There
isn't money hanging around that can be handed
over- check our bank account, it's public, it's
not a problem.
DLF: We should go onto
the third demand, but in principle you should,
erm, give over representation for Deaf to the
BDA. …Third one ( ) There should be
a full and public apology for going on the radio
and not making any effort to contact the Deaf
Community about it. It's not, we were excluded
and we felt like we were being talked about rather
than talked with or to.
JL: Yes, I know that
the radio is, is not an accessible, er, media
for deaf people, but there are many people in
this country who don't read newspapers, who don't
watch television, but do listen to the radio.
And one of the things that's very sad in Britain
today…
DLF: OK, OK, OK - but
the Deaf Community don't, deafened don't, so why
target that form?
JL: No, I agree, but
the sad thing is that in this country today there
is a huge prejudice against deafness. People think
that deaf means stupid, that deaf means that there's
something wrong with you, disabled, not able to
think, not able to take a job. There's this huge
prejudice against deaf people- and we want to
fight that. We want to speak to anybody, er, if
we can make a difference to that prejudice, if
we can change peoples' minds, erm. And if that
means I have to go on the radio and reach people
who wouldn't be reached otherwise, then I will
do it. But I will also speak to the newspapers,
and I won't even just speak to one newspaper like
The Guardian, but speak to The Sun, The Daily
Mail, The People, and papers that reach everyone-
and say "This isn't right. We have to change
our society".
DLF: You're going off
the point really. The point is that you chose
the radio to talk about a really really important
issue for Deaf people but you did not tell us
beforehand and we had absolutely no access- and
you should make an apology.
BL: Perhaps, perhaps
it would just help because I was actually involved
in that process, and I think you need to understand
that we don't necessarily choose the media - the
media came to us. They were already making this
programme and they wanted our views. It was not
something we targeted, and as John said, we had
a choice that either we could go on and talk about
the discrimination that deaf people face to get
that message across, or we could not, and no one
would've gone. Because the radio programme chooses…
DLF: OK, OK but the same
time, at the same time you never asked the Deaf
Community about the RNID and our Community, never
informed us or made effort to contact us! ( )
You never made any attempt to give us access to
that information in a format that's accessible
to the Deaf Community as well. You chose a form
of media that is not accessible for our Community
and we were made ignorant about it, and you did
not make any attempt to make it accessible. We
were excluded from the radio interview. And there
should have been a transcript - but it took us
a long time, a very long time, to get a transcript.
JL: I tell you what I
will do- if we go on the radio and say something
about any issue to do with deafness, I will make
sure that on the website there is a description
of what was said. I can't promise that it can
be an exact, erm, script, because sometimes we
just don't, that's not possible. But I will make
sure that there's at least a summary saying when
it happened, what the subject was, and who the
speakers are that were on the radio. Erm, I'm
sorry it's not accessible. I had been speaking
to a company about the possibility of a radio
using the new digital radio which was suitable
for deaf people and it would have text, a little
bit like subtitles, erm. But when I asked Deaf
people about it, they said "Oh, we're not
interested in a radio with English words, you
know, on text, it's stupid". And so that
idea was dropped- because we listened. Erm, but
I can put it on the website, and I'll make sure
that always happens if anyone from RNID goes on
the radio. Does that, does that help?
DLF: It's a bit brief
(summaries only). But, I mean, what about what's
happened so far? Are you going to make an apology
for the recent radio programme? Because there
was a lot of feeling out there in the Deaf Community
about it- people are very upset.
JL: I'm not sure which
time, because we're on the radio, erm, many times
every week, erm, if there's a big issue. There's
been a lot of stuff on the radio recently about
the Equalities Commission, and the fact that the
government is thinking of moving the Disabilities
Rights Commission into a big, er, single Equalities
Commission- and there's been a lot of radio work
about this, and, you know, I don't know which
particular interview, er, on the radio that you're
concerned about?
DLF: So there's a lot
of information that we don't know about then!
There's a lot, the way you're talking, of information
about us that we're not being made aware of. That's
fine!
JL: Well, do you, is
it what's…
DLF: End of October,
You and Yours programme at the end of October.
JL: Let me check the
records see what was said on that, and we can
arrange for a…
DLF: You and Yours with
James Strachan and two or three disabled people
on the panel, and you were on it- do you remember
that one?
JL: I remember that,
yes.
DLF: So are you going
to apologise for that?
JL: But who would I apologise
to? Erm, you know, I …
DLF: To the Deaf Community!
JL: I don't think I can
apologise for going on the radio, erm. I'm sorry
that you, people in the Deaf Community felt it
was, erm, not possible to understand. But exactly
the same discussion - I must say this- exactly
the same thing that was said on the radio appeared
in the newspapers in the same week- it was exactly
the same story, with the same arguments.
DLF: Er, no, no, no!
Look, I don't ask you to apologise for being on
the radio, I ask you to apologise for not informing
the Deaf Community, and for excluding us, and
for not making it accessible to us. That is the
problem. I accept that hearing need the radio,
and that you're going to use that- fine. I accept
that, you're right, it's important. But we need
to be informed!
JL: I'm happy to, if
you want me to, but if you don't want me to I
won't waste RNID money and resources doing it-
but if you want me to, I will make sure the resources
are available to put radio interviews, you know,
the details of them, on the website when it happens.
I, I can't put it on the website in BSL, but I
can put it on in text. Erm if you don't think
that's worth doing tell me now. But I, I'm not
going to apologise for something that happened
several months ago. I just don't think that's
helpful.
DLF: So you're saying
that creating access for D/deaf people is a waste
of money?
JL: No, I'm saying I'm
willing to do it, but if you tell me you're not
interested, then that's fine, I, I won't do it.
I want to listen. I've made a suggestion. Is it
a good one or is it a bad one?
DLF: Yes, if you create
access of course it's a good idea.
JL: That's good. We'll
do that.
DLF: Going onto the fourth
demand- The management of the RNID are all hearing.
D/deaf aren't able to be promoted very easily
within the organisation, and you should organise
training programmes for the Deaf and hard of hearing
staff within your organisation to erm, be better
able to achieve management positions within the
organisation. You should have a five year plan
to implement this so that this organisation can
become a D/deaf led organisation with D/deaf management
within five years.
JL: Erm, there are D/deaf
people in management jobs in RNID, but you're
right, at the moment none of the, erm, directors
are D/deaf. Erm, I'm interviewing, in fact there's
someone waiting in reception to be interviewed
by me for one of the jobs, er, of director. And
we went and we advertised very publicly, but I
can tell you that…
(End
of tape)
(Note: Tape finished
- JL asks how Deaf people would access an audiotape
anyway, and DLF joke that they left their cochlear
implant at home. Laughter all round. The rest
of the meeting is summarised below…)
JL admitted that he doesn't
think RNID is doing a good job of developing management
training, and they are having difficulty in recruiting
D/deaf and hard of hearing Directors as they are
not coming forward. RNID is creating a training
programme and its new Director of Personnel is
investigating this. They have a Deaf Employment
Forum and JL says he will go to their next meeting.
Demand Five: "A
five year strategy is written to ensure all of
RNId's SMT (Senior Management Team) and Trustees
are D/deaf and hard of hearing. It is fully legal
for the RNId to incorporate, as part of their
constitution, a clause to do this."
JL said he will talk to the
Trustees and bring up our concerns at their next
meeting in February. He said RNID has had problems
as Deaf people don't want to be Directors or Trustees.
DLF said that JL needs to think about why this
is so. JL says he is disappointed that the RNID
"hasn't been operating properly," and
will be investigating to find out why. He will
follow this up and email DLF.
DLF asked JL to go outside and
meet other DLF members, but he said he did not
have time for this. The meeting was then finished,
and it was agreed that they will stay in touch.
For more info, email: deafliberation@hotmail.com
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